It’s rather amazing that you claim to know the intent of someone else’s post, even though you weren’t the author. It’s further amazing that you simply ignored my last response, wherein I specifically clarified points and even state that the post was subjective in nature, not as you say, “neutrally trying to educate and inform us.” Why you would maintain that such was my intent, even though I specifically stated otherwise (even using first-person to declare subjectivity), proves only a desire to argue about something that wasn’t even said.

Most posts written on this site are based on observations that the authors have made about events around themselves. So while your desire to move a character from a PvP to a PvE server may have been a contributing factor to the OP, it was hardly directed at you, else you would have specifically been called out. The fact is, you’re not the only one who prefers PvE servers over PvP servers, and you’re hardly the only person I know who intends to (or has already) switched. So please, don’t make yourself so important to think you single-handedly spawned the OP, because you didn’t. Even the sentence of mine you use to support your claim that the post was about you is in fact about me and my character and my choice of servers. Unless you’re my clone, I don’t see how this applies to you.

Also, your “clarifications” are lovely, Maxator. You splendidly took my statements out of context and placed them beside your phony quotes, neglecting any of the points I made in my earlier response, even those wherein I expressed agreement with you. It seems you don’t care about the entirety of the post, but only what a handful of out-of-context pieces could mean. I haven’t seen such misinterpretation since George Bush read a CIA brief about weapons of masss destruction in Iraq.

I don’t need to ask myself what I meant and what I wrote, because I’m the one who meant it and wrote it. Perhaps you should consider my earlier response and understand that the OP was intended to be subjective, and that it was littered with sarcasm as many online rants are. If I wanted to write an objective analysis of player mentalities who wanted to leave PvP servers as opposed to those who wanted to stay, I would have done just that. And, if I really expected the readerbase to take the OP as such, then I wouldn’t have made sarcastic ending comments.

If you want to be upset at something, be upset at something meant to be objective; don’t take offense at a sarcastic OP whose statements were already clarified. The fact is, your interpretation of my statements that PvE servers and the players who chose them are inferior is exactly that: your interpretation. Which is a strange interpretation you maintain, considering my response earlier. If you don’t want to believe what was actually written, or care about clairifications made, or want to address the premise behind the OP which I mentioned earlier, then why are you even still here?

First, read your original post. I mean really read it. Don’t read to think how you can manipulate what you said to make it sound like you were being helpful or informative. Don’t read it to think what points you can justify now with definitions and paragraphs. Read it. Read for your intent. Your intent was to show the superiority of PvP realms and inferiority of PvE. Read how you ended it and I will quote exactly so you don’t feel misled, “Suck it up. Play on hard mode.” Certainly a quote of someone who is neutrally, trying to educate and inform us. Any reader understands what you were saying, don’t waste our time with after the fact dilution of your point.

You point out that I take this personally and seem confused as to why. Am I to believe it is coincidence that you write that nonsense the same week I decide (and talked to you about) my desire to switch to a PvE server from the PvP server I initially rolled on? Don’t insult my intelligence to support you nonsense. I’m sure your statement “So too, this can be frustrating, but I daresay not to the point of drawing me away from the PvP server I initially rolled my character on.” Clearly this statement does not refer to what realm to select and play on. You are referring directly to my choice. You wrote it in response to me and my actions, you made it personal. So I take it personally as you wrote it as such.

As for my originally response, I feel it needs very little clarification. Any reader that reads your original post and my response knows what you were thinking and the same for me. However, for clarification I have attached the actual sentence from your post next to the paraphrases I listed in my response. Clearly your readers will see my massive errors…

“PvE players want to play on the easy level” – WK: “I’ve played games on easy-mode too, which usually have less enemies, less surprises, and less bragging rights.”

“PvE players only like to grind” – WK: “If all I wanted to do was grind, I’d go buy a console…”

“PvE players don’t enjoy PvP, even world PvP” – WK: “If you want to play on a server where there’s no chance of player characters killing you…” (Just so you know in a PvE realm I can be killed by another player in Battlegrounds, if I flag myself, or in an enemy capital. Thus selecting a PvE realm does not preclude PvP entertainment, it simply controls it.)

“PvE mode is how to learn the ropes to see if you are good enough to take on others” – WK: “know that it’s a great way to learn the ropes before deciding you’re good enough to take on real people.”

“PvE players want to play single player” – WK: “I congratulate your ability to buy a multiplayer game and turn it into a single-player game.”

“Without PvP you have changed an MMO into a single player game” – WK: “I congratulate your ability to buy a multiplayer game and turn it into a single-player game.”

“To avoid ganking, I should avoid playing at peak hours” – WK: “Scheduling my playtime to avoid STV or the Badlands during peak hours isn’t that bothersome.”

“PvE players want less enemies and less surprises” – WK: “I’ve played games on easy-mode too, which usually have less enemies, less surprises, and less bragging rights.”

“Suck it up and play it on hard mode” – WK: “Suck it up. Play on hard mode.”

WyldKard read your exact quotes, stop diluting, and ask yourself what you really meant and what you wrote. Then either standby what you wrote or apologize for offending me. Either choice I will respect.

Sincerely, PvE Max (No dictionaries were used in the making of this post.)

Regarding the allusion of PvE being “easy mode”: If we assert that a given set of end-game gear can be described as [x], then a player who has achieved level 60, and obtained [x] on a PvE server, has accomplished a fair deal. If a second player has also achieved level 60, and obtained [x] on a PvP server, then we know that the second player has overcome all the same obstacles as the first player. However, by nature of being on a PvP server, the second player overcame additional obstacles, as he not only had to deal with the same PvE challenges as the first player, but he had to overcome enemy players, whether they “ganked” him, or were otherwise engaged in combat with him in some form or another. With this in mind, the first player had an easier time than the second player to reach level 60 and obtain [x]. Thus, I sarcastically likened the PvE setting as “easy-mode”, and the PvP setting as “hard mode”. At no point, however, did I demean the actual experience associated with PvE challenges.

To clarify my use of the word “grind”: I consider “grind” a dual-function MMORPG term. To me, “grinding” is doing anything in the PvE context that nets experience. One MMORPG glossary defines “grind” as:

The act of killing MOBs repeatedly, usually in a small area, for the purpose of gaining the maximum amount of experience points in the least amount of time possible.

This definition itself hints at the term’s dual use, for the term does not exclusively refer to the experience of simply killing mobs repetitively like some farming scripts do. If quest experience is the quickest way to earn experience in the shortest time possible, then I am comfortable using the word “grind” in that context (i.e, “grinding out a quest”), which is how I used it in the opening post.

Regarding World PvP: Battlegrounds are not world-PvP; Battlegrounds are instanced PvP areas. World-PvP is defined by the ability to kill or be killed in the consistent “common” areas that questing takes place in. That’s an important clarification, because there are many players on PvE servers who quite enjoy Battlegrounds, but dislike the very idea of world-PvP, which is the only difference in PvP and PvE servers.

I should also point out that unlike your false quotation, I did not assert that players on PvE servers disliked all aspects of PvP. By the very fact that such players use the Battlegrounds, such a notion is false. However, one cannot deny that players on these servers dislike world-PvP, because that’s the only element missing from the very servers they rolled on.

Regarding the notion that “PvE is training for PvP,” you took my statement out of context. The actual quote of mine followed a short list of differences in PvE and [world] PvP, wherein I stated that in the former, there were “less enemies, less surprises, and less bragging rights.” I then acknowledge that preferring PvE does not make a player a “wuss,” and follow with a statement that my gaming experiences in a different genre taught me how to be a better player. Apparently, I falsely assumed that the reader of the post would know enough about traditional FPS bots to realize that such bots are considered vastly inferior to actual players. The correlation between MMORPGs and FPS’ was not meant to suggest that PvE AI teaches one to tackle PvP opponents, but rather that the isolated nature of a PvE server, sans the PvP aspect, allows players a better opportunity to learn their class’ abilities and how the game works. The correlation was meant to follow from the idea that in the FPS genre, players have a better opportunity to learn how the game is played in an environment sans other human players. That is to say, throwing a new WoW player on a PvP server with hostile players is akin to throwing a new Half-Life player into an online Deathmatch, rather than giving him time to learn the game as the single-player introduction was designed to do.

You are correct as to the idea that “multiplayer” is not synonymous with “competitive multiplayer”. I also enjoy co-op challenges, and usually prefer to have a co-op aspect involved in competitive multiplayer gaming, so we are in agreement here. Perhaps I should have clarified this, but I assumed that I was clear when I began the next statement with, “If all I wanted to do was grind…” By saying that, I was making a direct reference to PvE gamers whose desire was to quest alone, and neglect the multiplayer elements of MMORPGs, of which PvP is one such element. Rather than discourse on sporadic instances, I instead focused on the atmosphere that players on PvE servers find themselves in for the majority of their game time; aside from the those who “farm” instances, the vast majority of one’s time prior to reaching end-game is in the world, grinding through quests and mobs. For most players, particularly those who did not roll characters that they intend to play exclusively with friends, much of their time is spent soloing the PvE content, which is inherently not multiplayer. This is an aspect I do not enjoy nearly as much as when multiplayer elements are involved, which are the very elements that I use to justify paying a monthly fee.

Again, your continued misquotes require attention. I did not write that the lack of PvP effectively turned MMORPGs into single-player games. Rather, I quite specifically included RP elements as well as PvP elements as key factors that define what an MMORPG is. Furthermore, I opened the fourth paragraph of my post with the idea of dynamism being present on PvP servers, as opposed to the more static and predictable nature of PvE servers. This was done in an effort to point out how PvP servers are living entities, in that the safety and population of zones changed as a direct result of PvP confrontations. This is wholly unlike single player games, where, like instances and other PvE content, confrontations become predictable enough to allow for the development of a single, repeatable strategy, which is the basis for how guilds reach “farming status” for end-game encounters.

Your assertion that PvE players liking “neutral NPCs… and lots of flowers to pick” being equivalent to my suggestion that PvE servers have comparatively less enemies and less surprises than their PvP counterparts is just plain ridiculous. PvE servers do have less enemies than PvP servers, and they do have less surprises as a result of those player-driven enemies existing on PvP servers. In no way does that demean PvE challenges; it simply notes the fact that players on PvE servers prefer the lack of enemies and associated surprises that player characters bring to the world.

Overall, I find it interesting how personal you seem to have taken my post, given that I very clearly outlined many of my positions in the first person, insinuating in a very clear fashion that the post was, in the majority, a subjective one. At no point did I intend to regulate your activities, or those of anyone else who preferred PvE servers.In fact, I specifically stated that people should play on the server type they prefer, which happens to be why Blizzard created four different server variations. In the introductory paragraph, I intentionally did not say, “I daresay not to the point of drawing someone away from the PvP server they initially rolled their character on.”

It appears to me that in your mind, the notion of a PvP server is synonymous with ganking. So present is this notion with you, that you ignored the very foundation on which my post was built, when I stated, “However, the majority of the time one gets killed by enemy players is not by people of a much higher level than you, but by people within a reasonable level range.” Rather than address this point to dismiss my arguments, you instead posted a lengthy piece full of misquotes. Really, your whole tirade is a defense for leaving a PvP server to avoid ganking, when the very premise of my post was that ganking (in the traditional sense of much higher-level players killing lowbies) is not as burdensome as some would make it out to be.

The first two paragraphs are insightful, and are promising introductions to a worthwhile discussion on the subject I proposed. They would serve as a great introduction for a discourse on how you disagree with my assertion that traditional ganking is not a major problem and that it has not spiraled out of control. I’m rather disappointed that instead of focusing on what those paragraphs said, and addressing the very basis for the bulk of my post, that you instead spent the majority of your response making up false quotations and, surprisingly, picking apart the humour in the post that is so evident throughout the site.

Take things less personal, because contrary to your last paragraph, the post was never about you, your motivations, how much more of a life you have than someone who copes with player inflicted death, the fact that some people validate their lives by their PvE accomplishments just as easily as the next person does by their PvP accomplishments, or the fact that roleplayers escape their lives about as much as you do when you read a book. I’d be happy to discuss any of these topics if you desperately wanted to, but in this thread, let’s focus on what was actually said, and what the actual premise was, shall we?

Although I respect WyldKard’s opinion and I don’t seek to change it, I do have issues with what he previously wrote regarding the superiority of PvP and the implied inferiority of PvE and more disturbingly, those who would choose to play PvE. His comments about what HE enjoys regarding PvP may be valid, however insinuating (and not too subtly) that those who want to play on PvE realms want “the easy level,” only like to grind, don’t enjoy the occasionally PvP encounter, or “need to suck it up” and play on “hard mode” is ridiculous. It may be easy to think that way to justify one’s opinion, but those statements are false, dismissive of others’ opinions, and do nothing to support any real pro-PvP argument. If you love PvP, good for you. The bottom line is, the choice to PvP or PvE is a personal one. However, as WyldKard threw down the gauntlet, I will respond in kind.

Admittedly, I can only speak for myself. I am however, an avid gamer who has played a mage through level 60 on a PvP realm, who now greatly looks forward to the opportunity to transfer my characters to a PvE realm. In my humble opinion, I can tell you that the blanket statements he made about a player desiring to play on a PvE realm are false and quite frankly insulting. First, I will refute the comments that offended me one at a time. Within those answers, it should become obvious why I am anxiously awaiting switching my characters to a gank-free PvE realm. Lastly, I will provide an alternative reason why some may play an MMORPG, other than killing other players or role playing.

Refuting Statements

“PvE players want to play on the easy level” – I consider WoW full of challenges independent of world PvP. Many instances and quests were well designed by Blizzard to push what a player can do both solo and as a group. I enjoy challenges and sometimes even failing several times before I complete them. I do not, however, enjoy being interrupted from these challenges by Timmy the 12 year old who decides he wants to kill my soloing level 30 with his purpled out 60. I see no challenge with this, only frustration. I have no chance, Timmy knows it, and the next 5 minutes of my gaming life will be spent walking back to my body and more often than not finding Timmy waiting. Ganking does not add challenge, it wastes the limited game time I have. Blizzard’s poor attempt at an honor system has done nothing but made this worse. Remember a level 54 character in all greens provides an honorable kill and therefore rewards for a purpled out 60. Honor indeed.

“PvE players only like to grind” – Not really sure where that one came from, but I assure you I have done significant grinding only once (for my first mount) and I do not care to repeat it. I enjoy soloing, grouping, and instances. Grinding is a means to an ends and a boring one at that. That being said for those who want to solo or even grind and not worry about ganking, is that a crime? God forbid someone choose how they want to play and someone else not be able to choose to kill them. Safe soloing should be an option at any level in any zone. My in game choice should not be usurped by other’s quest for ganking.

“PvE players don’t enjoy PvP, even world PvP” – I enjoy the PvP portion of the game. I have tried battlegrounds and even fought many times in the world. I will tell you this however, there is a time and a place for PvP and while I am questing (IE usually already engaged in PvE combat) is not the time. I will transfer to a PvE realm not to avoid PvP, but to avoid ganking. Ganking is a MASSIVE problem that destroys the game experience. The only way to effectively deal with that problem is to take the power away from Timmy and friends. When I want to PvP I can flag myself or go to portions specifically designed for it, battlegrounds.

“PvE mode is how to learn the ropes to see if you are good enough to take on others” – Has it occurred to WyldKard that PvP is a separate portion of the game and that PvE is not some big training ground to prepare us for the ultimate PvP experience? If I felt the need to validate myself by beating others, I would play Counterstrike 10 hours a day or pick on people. PvE does virtually nothing to train a player for PvP. PvP is the only thing that gets you better at PvP.

“PvE players want to play single player” – Now to that heart of the fallacy that is WyldKard’s argument. I and many people like me, play WoW, are you ready for this, to cooperate with our friends… To work together for a common goal and achieve it. I do not feel better about myself when I kill another player. I do not need to prove my worth by beating a human player. I am smart enough to know when I have completed a challenge, I do not need “honorable kill” to appear to know. I enjoy the challenges of the game and the option of playing PvP if I so choose. And yes, I would like at least the option of soloing without looking over my shoulder for Timmy or players like him. “Without PvP you have changed an MMO into a single player game” – That sounds like the statement of someone who sees other players simply as targets. How interfacing with other players in ways other than killing them? For instance: Help others, socialize, heck even selling stuff to others. Don’t miss out on the best part of the MMO, cooperating with players like you, maybe even with different and valid opinions… “To avoid ganking, I should avoid playing at peak hours” – If WyldKard chooses to avoid ganking by scheduling his playing time around the harassment/playing schedule of others or avoiding massive zones, so be it. I have a life, I pay to play (in all zones), and I will therefore play when and how I choose, not when Timmy and those like him finally log off so I can enjoy the game. “PvE players want less enemies and less surprises” – Truly the ideal game for me is all neutral NPCs and with soft music playing and lots of flowers to pick. WRONG. I like enemies, the more the merrier. I love surprises… BOO!!! I like combat, a lot. However, I want enemies and surprises I have at least a chance of defeating. Not characters 30 levels higher that are bored and want to harass lower levels. That is not a PvP challenge, it is other players compensating…

Lastly my personal favorite, “Suck it up and play it on hard mode” – Not sure that is much worse than “jumping on the wuss calling bandwagon.” As much of a bold and inciteful statment as that is, I feel it has been covered.

Conclusion

WyldKard’s made his reasons for playing abundantly clear. I will close my post by answering the question in which he closed his post, esentially: “If you’re not into PvP or roleplaying, then why play an MMO?” For me, I play to cooperate with others, I play for a challenge, I play for the tactics, I play for the accomplishment, I play for the fun. I want to play on my terms, when I choose, and with the option to solo, group, instance, or PvP, without harassment.

I don’t mind PvP, sometimes I even like it. It is ganking that I abhor and ganking that has taken over and ruined many PvP realms. It has taken many of the most beautiful zones (STV most notably) and made them miserable. At least on Bleeding Hollow, repeated ganking is not the exception anymore, it is the rule. Thanks to Timmy and players like him, it is just no longer enjoyable because of their immaturity and harassment. Is this my fault? Does this make me someone who doesn’t like challenge? I think not.

WyldKard apparently feels that my motivations to play, such as cooperation and quest accomplishments make me less of a player and make PvE accomplishments less than a PvPer. I do not feel the need to validate myself by killing others, nor do I feel the need to escape my life and pretend to be an troll (role play). If these are truly the reasons why someone plays an MMO (to kill others and escape their life), then I will return a question, what does that say about them?